Growth requires breakage. This episode is a brilliant discussion with leadership coach Melissa Rider Carson. We talk about leading from the messy. Here’s a brief clip of what she had to share with us.
All of us as individuals bring our set of experiences, our ways of working, our ways of thinking to which is great. It’s that diversity of thought and experiences that drive innovation. That’s awesome. However, as a leader, you need to find a way to harness what I call the messy, which is all of that stuff. And all of those people are also motivated differently, and they have baggage of things that are going on in their life and how they show up every day. And so I think, as that leader who’s trying to get everybody around, that job of that leader is to harness the messiness, the imperfections.
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LinkedIn: Melissa (Rider) Carson | LinkedIn
Crimdell Consulting Website Crim Dell Consulting
Today, we are talking about perfection with my guest, Melissa, who will introduce to you in a short moment.
First, I want to introduce you to a concept that we will surely visit in this session. And that is that growth requires breakage. Now, I want you to hold on to that as we are all organisms in constant growth and even more so as we learn more about how we need to operate in this world that we live in, and how we need to sustain this world that we live in. And you know, one of my core values of sustainability. So even when I talk leadership, I talk about sustainability. Okay, so while that’s percolating at the back of your minds, I want to introduce Melissa Carson, who I met last year networking at the Women Tech Network event. It’s a brilliant space created by Anna Radulovski for hundreds of 1000s of women in technology, but also women who support women in the workplace. And this is, this is, how Melissa and I started chatting. And Melissa is a seasoned global HR executive, turned organisational strategy advisor and leadership guide. And I just want to welcome you to the courageous career club, Melissa.
Melissa Rider Carson 3:06
I’m so happy to be here and talk with you again. It’s really fun.
Katherine Ann Byam 3:10
I think so, I am really excited about all the content that we’ve put into the session for you. So Melissa, one of the many lines I’ve heard from you and love, is this idea of creating workplaces that don’t suck. And people laugh when they hear this. But I believe that one of the reasons there’s so many new entrepreneurs today in the world is, especially in the great reshuffle, is because of this very precise problem of workplaces that suck. So I wanted to talk to you a bit about how you came to starting up on your own and what this idea means for you.
Melissa Rider Carson 3:46
Yeah, it’s an interesting one. And I hesitated when I started saying this out loud, because I’m like, as an HR person, like, is that too bold to say, you know, workplaces shouldn’t suck. So I had to sort of erase that part of my brain and say it’s true. And I actually was really lucky in most of my corporate career that I got to work at great places. You know, yes, you’ve run into the bad manager or leader or whatever, or bad phases, but I saw what good could be. But I listened to friends and family and read some of the stuff that people are experiencing and like that’s wrong, like it doesn’t have to be that way. Because all the research says if people enjoy what they do and the people that they work with, and they feel challenged and they you know, have a good boss, they will do their best work. Absolutely, it doesn’t have to be you know, this top down, rude behaviour, you know, you are a resource, you are not a human, leave your work, you know, personal life at home. Like that’s not necessary and I frankly COVID changed the whole game on this.
Katherine Ann Byam 5:00
Absolutely. So when you, when you, started out on your own, what were you thinking? How are you going to approach this challenge? Because I know that there are several approaches to this challenge.
Melissa Rider Carson 5:09
So I originally thought about this back in 2016, when I was leaving a corporate job, and at the time, I decided not the right time. But when I thought about doing it in 2019, I had this aha moment. I was sitting in a conference room in Belarus, at a you know, travelling and I was like, I love travelling, and not because I get to go see new places, but I’m like, I’m not necessarily just doing my day job. I’m, I’m energised, because I’m talking to people about their organisation and how they make it better. And what are they, like? I’m on fire. I love this. And I came to a point that I was like, I want to just do this. Like, I love my job. And I have great opportunities and great people. But I’m like, I want to see if I can do this. And I’d also had some points were like, I don’t want regrets. Like, I would rather go into and try this and decide that I don’t like it or I’m not good at it, than not try it. So I was like, I know lots of people have done it. But why can’t I do it. So that’s, you know, sort of how I went into like, I’m going to be a coach and a consultant. And I had people telling me, You got to pick one lane and like, I’m not ready to pick a lane!
Katherine Ann Byam 6:22
I, you know, we can talk at length about picking lanes and all of this. But I totally agree with you. I don’t have one lane. But I do infuse as much as possible, my essence and my values into all the lanes that I choose. But let’s pivot to this conversation about perfection because I know that’s why people have come to listen to us today. And I want to talk about it from three contexts. So there are sort of three ways that we experience this perfectionist thing through being a freelancer, because the context of a freelancer is someone who is in business for themselves, and therefore has to rely on themselves completely, to being a startup with a team, where innovation is really key, and how you, how you, bring innovation out within the context and parameters that we have, and understanding we have about perfection. And then looking at larger organisations where expectations in general are extremely high, about how they continue to perform. So there’s sort of three lenses and we can tackle perfection. And maybe we can start from being a freelancer and your thoughts, your thoughts about it from that angle.
Melissa Rider Carson 7:32
Yeah, and we were talking a little bit about this before we got started around, when you go out on your own, the bar of entry is that you know something that people might be willing to pay for or spend time on. And, but as an entrepreneur, that’s only a really small piece of the job. And I think if you are self motivated and driven and you’re a perfectionist and achiever, you’re like, Okay, I got this, and then all of a sudden you realise, okay, I’ve got to do all these things that I’m not really good at, or I’ve never done before, or really scare the hell out of me, because maybe I’m not going to be good at it. And so I think that mindset of perfection gets in the way. Because the reality is, if you’re going out on your own, and you haven’t done parts of the job, whether it’s the social media, or the website design, or the marketing, or the business development, or, or whatever part of it, you gotta get curious and be willing to try it and fail, but fail fast, or realise at a certain point in time, that you’re not the expert on that. And from an ROI perspective, you should pay somebody who is because if you’re better at something, let somebody who’s the expert do their thing, which is a really hard mindset thing, because like, I’m not making that much money, I shouldn’t be paying because I have the time, I’m not that busy, I should do it. And I suffer this one a lot. Because I also like to learn things first, before I hand it off, but I think it’s realising that being perfect in your world, none of us are perfect and will ever be and if we keep striving for that, I think that’s the wrong choice. You know, I would say, strive to be the best version of yourself at all times. But be happy with who you are at the moment. I mean, I think you have to, it’s a hard slog, because you are by yourself.
Katherine Ann Byam 9:26
Yeah. Yeah. So now we’re at the point of bringing on board the team. So we’re now having that small startup, how does perfection start getting in the way here?
Melissa Rider Carson 9:35
All of us as individuals bring our set of experiences, our ways of working our ways of thinking to us, which is great. It’s that diversity of thought and experiences that drive innovation. That’s awesome. However, as a leader, you need to find a way to harness what I call the messy, which is all of that stuff and all those people are also motivated differently and they have baggage of things that are going on in their life and how they, you know, show up every day. And so I think, as that leader who’s trying to get everybody around, and it’s easier when it’s a small group, because you can sit around the table, and you all know each other probably, and, you know, that part’s easier, but you’re still carrying everybody’s imperfections into it. And so that job of that leader is to harness the messiness, the imperfections, to get to the maximum benefit. It’s kind of like a coach of the sports team, frankly, I have all of these players, that I’ve got to put them together in the best possible way, so that we all win as a team, not that my superstar is able to, you know, show up with his right metrics and things like that, and the right stats, but the whole team has to work together. And how do I do that? How do I motivate that? And particularly, I, as the leader, have my own baggage, I have my own life that you know, of how I show up, and I hate that that person doesn’t think the way that I want, the way that I think and I have to actually challenge my thinking, you love it, and you hate it. And so I think it’s, it’s a give and take, but it’s a realisation that none of us are perfect. There’s not one way to do things, we’ve got to change it up and be willing to be curious about, okay, let me rethink what I thought I knew.
Katherine Ann Byam 11:21
I get that. And I think when you’re building a small team, and getting that stuff out there, one of the fears you probably have as well is that, you know, you’re gonna give away some of your own unique USP. And that’s one of the things I think that gets in the way of making all of this work and making it all come together. And there’s a fear factor, there’s a even an impostor syndrome factor of can I really take this on? Can I really make this all work for everyone? I don’t know what your thoughts are on that as well.
Melissa Rider Carson 11:51
Yeah, I mean, I think you definitely take the burden of people’s livelihoods, our you know, my responsibility, like if we fail, particularly if people are putting skin in the game from a financial perspective, from an investment or, and or not taking salaries, those I mean you feel the weight of the world, on you, like, I’m not at that point in my business, but I’m like, I know people who are, you feel a lot of responsibility. And I think that also potentially takes you down a place where you do parts of the work, that really aren’t where you as the CEO, or the director, whatever, should be spending your time. But you feel obligated, or you don’t want other people to feel like they’re overworked. So it’s finding that fine balance of where do you add value? When do you roll up your sleeves and do the you know, the more administrative work that everybody in a small company has to do? But being conscious of okay, am I doing those somewhat simpler things because they’re easy, because I’m trying to avoid the harder things that I know that aren’t my favourite thing or my sweet spot. But I think also be as that leader recognising if this niche is not your sweet spot, say doing your business development or doing your marketing, then find somebody who is, like, be willing to admit that’s not your sweet spot, and find the person who can be that person? Or who is that person who’s going to challenge your thinking, if everybody else is saying yes. You need that.
Katherine Ann Byam 13:30
Yeah. And now we’re gonna move into the big one. So organisations, big mammoth things that probably are slower to change but need to, and how perfection gets in the way here. And I think, I think it’s more than perfection. It gets in the way, it’s probably a bit of legacy. It’s a bit of the culture that has survived over time. What are your reflections on that in the work that you’ve done?
Melissa Rider Carson 13:53
Yeah, I mean, I think perfection shows up in a couple of ways. I mean, usually shows up at the at the individual level, either the leader or the employee of, and sometimes an organisational culture contributed to it. So if that culture really makes you uncomfortable to fail, because you know, people get fired, people get, you know, bad performance ratings, like if you do anything wrong, then anybody who leans towards that perfection factor is going to feel like they’re often stuck, or they’re going to really worry and micromanage their team to make sure there is not a tiny error in anything that in some organisations and some teams are like, okay, doesn’t really matter. Like, yes, you screwed up, yes, you need to fix it. But there are some leaders in some organisations where that’s not acceptable. And I’m not saying that careers where it’s life and death and, you know, a little error changes the structure of the world, but most of us aren’t doing that kind of work. And so perfection at that leader level of what the environment they’re creating for their team can be a challenge. I think the other piece that gets in the way, as you said was, what’s the historical way of working. A lot of times, organisations will bring in new thinking, new sets of experiences, because they want to evolve and change. But it’s kind of like organ transplant. Often, that’s rejected, because it’s different. And it’s uncomfortable, and it requires people to change their processes and ways of thinking. So sometimes it’s really hard to create that change in the organisation. But I think I’ve seen big organisations change, but it starts with, I think, a bottoms up and top down, I think there has to be a population of people who are hungry for something different, as well as a leadership, whether it’s at the very top or whether it’s, you know, midway or even at the team level, who’s willing to say, yes, we can make this different. And I think today, every organisation is challenged, because the game has changed. Like any organisation that is telling you, or saying, Hey, we’re gonna go back to the way it was, is missing the boat. Yeah, and anybody who does that is an organisation that I don’t want to be a part of, because realistically, they’re saying the past, whatever, 19-20 months at this point, we didn’t learn anything, that we should take forward. And frankly, most employees are saying, I want something different than I had, I want flexibility. I want my employer to care about me like, that my family is been impacted by this, like the dynamics change. And so organisational leaders and organisations themselves have to evolve in some way. And I don’t think that’s one way or the other, like, it’s what did I learn? And what do we need to go forward with our customers, our clients our stakeholders, to be successful?
Katherine Ann Byam 16:55
Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I think, I think as well, that part of it is, is really embracing that failure is the path to success. And it’s this whole idea of breakage, I remember getting a quote from Alex Osterwalder from his book, The Invincible Company. And he was basically saying that you need something like 250 viable things that you start doing before you can have something that hits the billion dollar mark or something like that, which suggests that there’s going to be a lot of loss, there’s going to be a lot of people feeling invested in an idea that then the business doesn’t carry through. And it doesn’t make it an invalid idea, it just means it’s not the scalable idea that we want to go forward with. And I think, I think understanding these relationships is also key, right?
Melissa Rider Carson 17:44
Yeah. And it made maybe little bit of a tangent, but it made me think like, it’s, it’s those risks, also, that of that, where you might fail but if you don’t go at it, you will miss out. So, you know, I just got, you know, a letter saying, hey, I wasn’t chosen to speak at something, which is a failure and like, I want to get that, you know, check the box, everybody, you know, who I say I want to speak at their thing that they want me. So it’s a failure on one hand but you’re like, okay, but if I, but I tried it, maybe I wasn’t the right person for that. And so it’s changing the lens around, what do you take away from that? Yeah, I could, you know, I’m not that, that was not that important from that perspective. Like, I’m not going to set me back, but it’s a disappointment. And how do you take that I want to be that person. Yeah. And I see Linda’s question about perfection and stopping at good and not chasing great. I think you have to sort of accept who you are, and that you’re not going to win every time. But, you know, put the the emphasis on the stuff that you really, really want to win.
Katherine Ann Byam 18:55
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I want to, I want to tap into this, this whole idea of acceptance and like, like your thoughts, your thoughts on it? Like I remember once writing a piece on this whole topic of acceptance. And, like, I think one of the key fundamentals is your decisions improve with wisdom. So today’s you, is different from tomorrow’s you from next week’s you from next year’s you. So you have to take it one day at a time. I mean, what are your thoughts on on that as well?
Melissa Rider Carson 19:29
Well, yeah, and I mean, I thoroughly agree like who you are today is different, because hopefully, actually, I say hopefully, because if you are that same person, from week to week and year to year, then you aren’t growing like you are not stepping out of your comfort zone to learn something new or to meet somebody new. And so you’re not getting that wisdom because you haven’t done anything that would give you that growth and the wisdom. So okay, well, I’ve tried this and then, I didn’t like it, it didn’t work, etc, you’re not gaining anything. And so I think it’s valuing every lesson. And I think, in this busy world, very few people are taking the time to pause at the end of the day, at the end of the week, to actually plan before a meeting, to say, okay, what, what just happened? Did I? Did I learn anything? Did I? Do I have anything to do from that. So that business factor also plays into that, that wisdom or the feeling like you’re always on the hamster wheel towards perfection? Because you’re never reflecting, okay, well, wait a second, I’m so far beyond where I was last year at this time. But you’ve never slowed down enough to actually realise that, you know, you are making progress, you are growing.
Katherine Ann Byam 20:49
Now. That’s, that’s massive. I think that’s so important. And then, and then yeah, I guess, I guess the whole concept of failure as learning is the most essential thing that we could take forward like, if I’ve learned anything about being an entrepreneur to that, I think this is one of the reasons I’d encourage anybody to start something small, even a side gig just to experience this failure as learning concept, because we don’t get the chance to fail in established organisations where you have set processes and set routines that actually came from those failures.
Melissa Rider Carson 21:18
And then I think where we do see it in, in organisations more often is around just when you screw up somehow. Yeah. And I wrote about it today. And I, so many people face it, and I, you know, had my sucker punch, you know, failure at work, you know, years ago that I carried for a really long time of like, holy cow, I am not perfect. Not that I really thought it, but I’m like, I’m not. And it’s come back to bite me a bit. And, you know, how do you get past that? To say, okay, that is a lesson. I’ve learned it, I carry the lesson. But I don’t carry the failure and the regret with me forever. And I think so, many folks out there, they aren’t going to take that because I don’t think the entrepreneur route is the right thing for everybody. Yeah. Because it is a different mindset. It’s different. And I don’t I don’t know, for me, if it’s my long term thing. That’s my way of working. It works for me today. But it’s hard work. It’s different work. And so there’s a lot of ways to create impact within organisations as well as outside. I do like the part about being my own boss, though I kind of miss having a team. That’s, that’s downside.
Katherine Ann Byam 22:41
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to move to something that you also talk about a lot, which is taking leaps of faith. If you want to elaborate?
Melissa Rider Carson 22:51
Yeah. It’s funny, I was listening to a podcast, I don’t know, a year and a half, two years ago, and this coach was saying what are you different from other people on, and I started thinking about it, and like, you know, what, I have taken these career leaps of faith, where I wasn’t sure it was gonna happen, like, I need to do it. So, and then when I started thinking back, like, there have been other of those leaps of faith that I didn’t know what was going to work out, and many people would have told me you’re crazy and did like, and then they weren’t super bold, or outrageous, you know, I wasn’t bungee jumping off, you know, a bridge.
Katherine Ann Byam 23:30
I did do that though. It was fun, it was really fun.
Melissa Rider Carson 23:32
It was, you know, quit your job without other work lined up, like I had a financial state safety net, but it’s still like, why, why? And part of it was, you know, for me was, I don’t want a job search while I’m, you know, feel like I have a loyalty. But I’m like, I don’t know what I want to do. So I need the time to think and it goes back to the journey I said about deciding to go out on my own it was, it’s a risk. I don’t know if it’s going to fail. I don’t know if I’m going to be good at it. But I don’t want regret. Because I would rather try it. And yeah, which is scary. Because I do like to be perceived to be successful. You know, at everything that I do. I am competitive. By nature. I’ve always been since I was a child I am now, but sometimes you have to take the leap of faith and sometimes it is a hop or skip a type of the hop, skip jump, you know, leap, you know, but it has to start with something. Because otherwise you live in that box. That is your comfort zone. And you look at the thing that you really want or try or what other people have that you think you might like, and you never get there because you’re scared to take that leap of faith. So it has to be some level of faith in yourself that things will work out, I mean faith in yourself or bigger faith, if depending what you believe, that things will work out, however they’re meant to work out. And that, you know, most of these decisions are not life and death and they can be changed. So if you make the wrong choice, you can change it.
Katherine Ann Byam 25:19
Yeah. It’s interesting, because I was watching recently, I can’t remember if it was an Amazon or Netflix, but it was a show about intuition, and the role of intuition in decision making and how, you know, everybody talks about being data driven now, and you know, but with all the best data in the world, there’s still a human making these decisions. And sometimes you go against the data. And I guess, I guess the bit here is, how do we kind of connect this idea of taking a leap of faith, with that sense of intuition, there’s a sense of knowing that we have, that we haven’t figured out how to map yet. So you know, the sciences isn’t 100% clear yet, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of evidence, like in the show, one of the examples that they gave was that when people have a stroke on the left side, I can’t remember which side it is. But one of the sides, it’s harder to come back from, it’s harder to retrain the brain, from because there’s, there’s a different, there’s a different sensation that’s coming from people on the right side of the brain, their creative side of the brain is a sense of, of knowing that is beyond what sort of your logical side is able to understand. So your left side might not understand that you’re missing a limb, for example, but your right side will feel a loss. And I thought that was amazing. But we still don’t understand how it all works. But there is something in taking a leap, a leap of faith and a jump and, and taking those decisions that comes from a sense of knowing; how do you kind of tap into that?
Melissa Rider Carson 26:53
I mean, I think that’s a great question. And I think I mean, I believe we have, our gut tells us, like, we like you just have this, this feeling like I need to do this, I’m scared to do this, I need to do this, and, of being, you know, not being willing to let that go. If that voice or that feeling continues to be there. I think, I do think that’s a sign. Now, I would also say back to your points around the data. It’s don’t leap with no research, like do your homework. I know I didn’t do as much homework as I probably could. But I don’t think you actually know what you’re getting into to until you do it. I mean, I think about a job interview where someone said, hey, do you understand a matrix organisation? What that means? I’m like, of course I do. Like I understand conceptually. And then I got there. I’m like, oh, that’s what you mean by matrix organisation? And I think it’s the same thing of going out on your own, you know, yeah, I understand I need to do these things and create my business plan. And I know all that intellectually, yes. But you have to have that gut hunger, you know, like, I can be successful and trying something new, I do have something to offer. So it’s a little bit of belief in yourself. Yeah. And then trusting your gut. And, you know, some people don’t trust their gut, and have to do the work to figure out why. Is it because you’ve really made bad decisions all your life, or just, mostly because people are telling you that, you know, you shouldn’t.
Katherine Ann Byam 28:28
But this brings me to the last question I’m going to ask you today. And that’s around coming up with this idea of a board of directors for your life and for your business. Right. So not necessarily to hire them in. But you know, as you’re making these important changes, having, having a panel of people who you can sort of talk to, and you really brought this to life for me a couple, last year when you when you mentioned that you were doing this, and I’d like to understand how you go about choosing the members of that board. Because, you know, we talk about, we can’t necessarily trust our friends and family to give us, to tell us what we really need to hear. So how do you go about getting that board together?
Melissa Rider Carson 29:09
Yeah. And I think in some ways, some people might say it’s the community of mentors that are out there. But for me, and I don’t remember who, or where I read it, first of having your personal board of directors, but I, it was not my unique idea, but started to think about who are the people that, that it’s back to creating a team, it’s who’s going to give you the diversity of thinking. So who are going to be the people that either bring a set of expertises that you need, because you’re not good or comfortable in it, or they’re bringing a network, they’re going to be the champion of some of the things that you do that they inherently believe in where you’re going, and then some that are going to be that voice that you need to hear like, I don’t think that’s your great, that it’s a great idea, and be honest with you and that you will be willing to listen to. So it’s very similar to what you would think about from an external, you know, nonprofit or corporate, like you want a mix of people who are smart in the areas that they’re smart in, that are willing to, to use their voice to express their opinions, they understand the strategy of you, the person, you that the company, the seat with the CEO, whatever, you’re the CEO of your life, or your business or whatever, understand that strategy and want to see you succeed. And that sometimes is the heart messages. And sometimes that’s the rah rah, and sometimes it’s engaging their network. And I used a part of my board, last winter, I was contemplating, you know, I saw this internal job opportunity, and I was like, it’s showing up, it’s exactly kind of what I think I want to do. Is it showing up because it’s a sign? Like, is that why I’m seeing it right now? Why it’s in front of me. And, like, I can get swayed to think about that. And through the conversation, it was like, one of the great questions that was asked was, okay, if you go do this for two years, will it, what’s after that? I’m like, well, then I’m probably gonna go back to doing what I’m doing right now, like, okay, so will that experience, make you more successful in your business in two years if you go do it? And I couldn’t say that for what I wanted to do, or what I thought I wanted to do at that time, that I really needed that experience. And so I said, okay, then I am still in the right place right now.
Katherine Ann Byam 31:41
Yeah, yeah. It’s so important, and so very valuable, I think, to have it. And I think, you know, if you’re an employee in an organisation, it’s still relevant for you. You know, and it’s, and I think it’s really important because we sometimes, you know, having having worked in the corporate world for 20 plus years, you, you sometimes take on board, this idea of one mentor, and that person is usually someone who has done the same job as you. And there’s value in that there’s value in having someone who’s walked this road before. But there’s also tremendous value, especially today, especially as things become more complex focus, they say, it’s especially important to have a cross section of ideas come into this, this whole idea of, of your, your mentorship, buddy, so to speak.
Melissa Rider Carson 32:25
And I think the one of the things I would highlight, because it came up in a conversation I was in earlier this week is that when you are in a larger organisation, or like your world becomes very insular, in for many people. And you forget to spend the time with the people that you’ve worked at a past job with, or that do similar work or do that go to that networking event. And I caution people, because because at some point in time, you’re going to want or need to rebuild those relationships. So remain remembering that those aren’t necessarily just for, you know, when you need it. But more, hey, talking to somebody else in another organisation or another field, about what you’re trying to do is going to give you new ways of thinking about the same problem. So it’s not about networking to network, but it’s more how do I get, you know, diversity of ideas into my brain as I’m trying to solve this problem?
Katherine Ann Byam 33:24
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been a fabulous chat. I’ve loved every minute, we could go on forever. I know we can. But we need to stop. How can my listeners connect with you? And find your work?
Melissa Rider Carson 33:39
Yeah, I think the best place, I post daily on LinkedIn, and my ideas on leadership, predominantly teams, and how do you lead yourself, how do you lead others. So that’s the main places, you can also find me on a business Facebook page. And my LinkedIn business page has all the articles and podcasts and things that I love. So that’s probably the other way to check it out.
Katherine Ann Byam 34:02
Perfect. Thank you so much for joining me, Melissa. And thank you everyone for listening. Next week, I have another episode with someone in the sustainability space, a book author who’s pretty brilliant in what she does. Alice Smith, so I hope you will join me for that as well. It should be around the same time next week. So looking forward to that. Thank you, Melissa again for for having this conversation with us and for encouraging us that it’s okay to break things as you grow.
Melissa Rider Carson 34:32
Thank you for having me. Take care.
Katherine Ann Byam 34:34
Take care. Thank you so much. This episode was brought to you today by the courageous career club. Have you picked up your own copy of; Do What Matters: The Purpose Driven Career Transition Guidebook? To find out how you can get your copy, as well as resources that go alongside it, Visit my website, www Katherine Ann byam.com or engage with me on the socials. I’m looking forward to hearing from you.